Speaker 1:
Welcome to Conversations of Agile Change with Dr. Jen Frahm and Lena Ross. Join us as we dive deep into the world of agile change, engaging with individuals who are at the forefront of agile transformation. We explore how they adapt to change practices, enhance leadership capabilities, and uncover the strategies that succeed and those that don’t.
We’re recording on the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung peoples, and we acknowledge the rich history of change and agility within the First Nations communities Australia-wide. We honor and pay our respects to the elders both past and present and extend that respect to any Indigenous persons joining us today.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
And welcome back to another episode of Conversations of Agile Change. This week we’re going to have a bit of a special three for one in that I have been very lucky to secure the time of the fabulous trio from UniSuper being Leah, Marco, and Dijana who are going to join us for a bit of a group chat about agile change. Welcome to the podcast.
Dijana:
Thanks, Jen. Thanks for having us.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
It’s great to have you all. Let’s start with perhaps group introductions. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and maybe how you found your way into the world of change, Dijana?
Dijana:
Yeah. Thanks for calling because we, three of us are looking at each other saying, “We are going to go first.” Well, I’ve been in change for quite a long time, probably since my daughter was born and she’s now turning 18. So that’s the amount of years. Have spent all my life in projects since I came to Australia.
By the way, from the accent, if I speak too fast, please slow me down. I got into change purely by accident. Was working in a project in a PM model, was a little bit bored. There was a brilliant change lead in a project and I said, “Can I just hang around?” And she says, “Yeah, sure.” And she brought me into business working group and asked me to take minutes about a project I didn’t know much about.
So that’s my start around managing meetings, having conversation with stakeholders, understanding that group dynamic. And it completely piqued my interest and I always enjoyed that human feeling of project delivery. And from there, done a lot of things around the stakeholder management change analysis, your typical progression. Change analysis into change management. And this is my dream job, ideal job. I’m now leading the change management practice at UniSuper.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Beautiful. Isn’t that lovely when you can get into spaces which she describe as dream jobs? That’s pretty amazing. That’s pretty amazing. Marco, how about yourself?
Marco:
Pretty much the same. It was what I call my accidental career arm. I was once upon a time a process analyst at Census. Everybody remembers the Yellow Pages and White Pages back in the day. And I was on this big project and after it was done, the change manager or the manager of change came up to me and said, “Oh, have you ever thought of a career in change?” And me like most people went, “What’s that? I don’t…” And they said, “You know what the other girls were doing?” I said, “Oh, is that what they did?”
And honestly, and so he set me a little task and he said, “If you present this to my team and they’ve given me the thumbs up, I’d like to bring you on board.” So he gave me a little task. And off I went and just did it the way I thought it should be done and presented it. And I got offered a role as a change analyst and that was, what, 20 years ago. And it was just been a natural progression in the world of change since then.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Amazing. Your current role then is?
Marco:
I’m a change lead here.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Okay, fabulous. Fabulous. Leah, how about yourself?
Leah:
So like Marco, I fell into change accidentally and if I go back many years when I decided what I wanted to be when I grow up, I knew I wanted to help people and I went to university and I studied youth work and realized quickly that youth work wasn’t for me, but I was fortunate enough to have a lovely long career at World Vision at an international aid agency and it was there that I dabbled in roles that were change but not called change roles. And I found a real passion for helping people through change in the workplace.
And then moved into other industries before joining UniSuper. So my role here at UniSuper is manager of change. And insights and which essentially is leading a team of two, of our two change analysts within our practice and also providing insights to the organization about changes that are happening and the impact that those changes are having on teams. So particularly important for our executive and senior leaders as well.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
What an important role. I don’t think I’ve heard of too many with that specific responsibility. Wow, that’s impressive. Impressive, Dijana, I’m going to give you credit in there. One of the things that I’m always interested in because I think sometimes we really get addicted to the drama of our work, Dijana, what looks like a good day in change for you?
Dijana:
No drama. That’s a good thing. All jokes aside, you know not generally in a changed space, we tend to hear negative things or bad things. Something went wrong, somebody didn’t do what they’re supposed to do, somebody was not ready for change. So good day is when I don’t get any or not much of that.
One of the best times is when we achieve a milestone. So project goes live and everyone is ready or is ready as they can be. Our people on the ground are on the tools, ready to serve them, their customers ready to serve our members and everything feels like it’s going smoothly. But it’s also days like I come into the office and there is a laughter in the office because something fun happen and we all not stressed enough and we can joke around about it.
Personally, I really thrive on group work. I enjoy facilitating. So for me, good days when I walk into workshop and conversation just flows. There is not many breaks and pauses. And if the workshop is really brilliant and conversation is great and it actually goes over time, I just thrive on that type of stuff. But overall it is just that knowing that my team and I made a difference and that we made something that little bit easier and that little bit more practical and it turns into some sort of success to the organization.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Nice, nice, nice. Leah and Marco, I’m curious, you both mentioned… Marco, you mentioned telecommunications industry. Leah, NGOs. How does the superannuation industry differ perhaps from those that you’ve worked in?
Marco:
It’s completely different. You know you’ve got legislation and there’s rules and there’s certain things like you know sometimes when you were working on something with telecommunications or within the retail space, yeah, you could cut a corner here, you could get away with saying this or you could be a little bit more creative. And then within superannuation, just like banking, it’s like, “Well, yeah, sounds good, but you really have to say this.” Or, “You can’t use this word because this word in legal terms means this.” And so that was a big learning curve for me just to even the way we even structured words in a sentence could mean something completely different when it went out there out, but that’s not such a bad thing either. But yeah, I’ve got to say that the laws and legislation and that was a big whoa moment for me.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah.
Leah:
I agree with Marco, a lot of regulation and the regulatory environment around superannuation and financial services was very new to me joining UniSuper just over three years ago. Was at World Vision for 16 years. So as a not-for-profit, whilst there are some rules and things in place, there’s also a lot of quick pivots and quick shifts at times when it’s needed, especially in times of emergencies, natural disasters, those types of things.
But I also worked for five years in the public service and which is very different to the super industry once again. Lots of regulation but very hierarchical. And I love at UniSuper that whilst we are in the financial services industry, we are for member and all that we do is for our members. So there’s a lot of correlation also in a culture with what I’ve seen at not-for-profit at World Vision as well, which I really love. It’s one of the great things about working here that I love.
Marco:
Yeah, that’s really good.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah, nice. Nice. Now the three of you, you’ve each done a number of courses with us. I’m really curious about the origin. What prompted the interest in the space of agile change? What was it that brought you into wanting to learn more?
Dijana:
Well, for me, quite a few years ago I worked in Australia Post and I was involved in our first digital app and we were delivering tracking digitally. And I worked with quite inspirational leader that brought that agile ways of working into that space. And you know when you’re sitting in a really good project with a really good leader and really nice ways of working, I just clicked to the ways of working. And that ability to co-create, move fast, chunk it out, it suits my personality. My husband has been in Agile for a long time, so I tend to say I had to go into Agile to be able to have conversations at the dinner table, so keep my own side of it.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Marital harmony.
Dijana:
Natural harmony, exactly. And then after that, when I moved into state trustees, that’s where I was researching more around the Agile and Agile leadership and full open conversations here. I’ve done your change Agile leadership program, but I did not complete assignments, so I didn’t get certified in that one, but that’s where I discovered you guys. And I just loved the approach to learning, but also the concepts that you were bringing in.
And I also loved how up-to-date you were that it was always something new. Every time when I’ve done something with you guys, you told me something that I didn’t know before and that was important part for me. So when I started work and started building rebuilding practice here in UniSuper, the agile ways of working was very much what UniSuper is playing with in pockets of our delivery space. But then it’s also that lowercase agile, like agile in everything that we do. And I thought this was very applicable for the staff where I wanted to take practice and where the team wanted to go.
So as you know, I’m lifelong congruent to the stuff that you do, but that’s basically where I’ve started and started pointing my team to some of the directions. Now as I did so did they. I pointed to one course and they took interest in start doing more stuff in there. And I’ll let them talk about that.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah. Well, it’s probably timely that I should remind you that we now have lifetime access to that Agile change leadership certificate. So you’re welcome to submit those assessments anytime you feel comfortable. And we might have Marco and Leah holding you accountable now.
Dijana:
Thanks for that. That’s what I needed my to-do list. Much appreciated.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Marco, Leah, any different experience for you in terms of what was the interest in Agile?
Marco:
Well, for me it was actually something that our who I call the boss lady, Dijana.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
I’ll just get you to step closer to the microphone.
Marco:
Sorry. Yeah. It was something that our boss lady here had just touched on. We were starting an initiative within the business where they were going to start doing Agile project management in these little pockets and trialing it out. And I got given the opportunity to be the change lead on that. So I knew of Agile as a way of delivering projects. Didn’t really know anything about Agile as a way of delivering change.
So I was given this opportunity to sort of go off and say, “All right. You get to decide, you go and decide what that change strategy is going to be, what that playbook is going to be, how’s it going to work?” And I was like, “Whoa, geez, that’s a big trust, isn’t it?” So I thought, “I can’t let her down.” So when we were told about this course, just went on it and started doing it and have not looked back.
It’s just a no-brainer that this is the way change should always be done and should always have been done. That’s really where my interest came into it was when we getting pushed into that program of work. And then who knew?
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Who knew?
Marco:
And I bump into these people all the time. “Oh my God, I did this course. Oh my God, you got to do it.” And they’re like, “Thank you but can you shut up now?”
Dijana:
Yes, he does.
Marco:
I do all the time.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Leah, was there something in particular that landed differently for you in doing those courses?
Leah:
In terms of what’s landed differently for me and what I think has been something that’s shifted how I’ve been thinking about doing change, and it’s really around engagement. And I’ve always been very strong in engaging stakeholders when we’re going through change, but we talk about co-design. And I used to think I knew what that meant, but it turns out that I didn’t. And I was very good at validating my thoughts and what I thought was the best next steps. And here’s how we can roll out this change, here’s the plan. And realize that that’s not co-design at all. That’s just simply seeking feedback. So for me it was a real shift in my mindset about it’s actually working with other people to create the plan, not to validate and confirm the plan. So that was certainly something that really stuck for me.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
I can really relate to that. I think that was one of the big challenges for me initially was that letting go and facing into the fact what I thought I was doing actually probably wasn’t quite there yet. I can really relate to that, Leah. Marco, and first of all, thank you for all those lovely things that you just said, but I’m curious about what changed for you as a practitioner.
Marco:
After doing the Agile. So it was no big secret to most people that I felt that I was done and dusted in the world of change. I was disillusioned by it all. It was just so rigid. It was just so heavy on everything. And every time there was a new methodology, everybody wanted to jump on it. And then you couldn’t even do it because then everybody tried to bastardize it. “Let me take a bit of this, let me take a bit of that.” And it just you would go to another company and you would see their ways of working and you’d be like going, “God, that’s just…” And didn’t see myself adding any value.
Yeah, I created a lot of great strategies and plans and the whole folder full of artifacts.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Artifacts. yes.
Marco:
When you really looked at them, what did they mean? What did they do? And then all of a sudden everybody started reading a change book and they read a book on change, something, they were a change expert. And you were coming against all this resistance and weren’t really allowed to do your job. And you were just this person that was just there because you had to have a change person.
And then went and did this course. And as I said before, it just blew my mind. It was like, “Oh, okay, I didn’t think about that. Oh, you mean I can do that? You mean I can tell a story? Do you mean?” Even the way you create a persona and a user story was just so invigorating and it was just so, “Oh, I didn’t think you could do it like that. You couldn’t do it like that.” And I was almost scared for a moment because I’m like, “Oh, God, now I’ve got to go out and do it.” But I thought, “No, no, no, I’m in a safe spot. I can do this. I’m allowed to. I’m the change person on this. I’m allowed to do this. I’ve been told I’m allowed to.” And it was just brilliant.
Suddenly you were transparent and there were no repercussions if you did something wrong. You could go back and say, “I’m going to pivot on that one. Sorry, guys.” And the full autonomy that it gives you, I mean it completely just lifted my spirits in wanting to keep going. Then of course, I had to keep telling everybody that they had to do it.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
I think it’s interesting to look at the tension between that freedom and liberation that you’re speaking about and the constraints of a highly regulated industry. I think that’s really interesting. And often we get those questions about, “I don’t think I can work agile because we’re government or because this,” whereas some of my best experiences in it have been where it’s more about how I loosen up my practice within the framework of where you’re working. Yeah. But I also really relate to what you said about feeling a little bit scared and nervous. That, okay, it’s now time, you just got to put your money where your mouth is.
Marco:
Yeah.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah.
Dijana:
We have a framework that guide us, but on a purpose, the framework was built around the agile principles. So it was built around the data-driven decision making. It was built around the co-design, it was built around open conversations. And one of the roles in our practice is at the start of every engagement, then we agree with the sponsor around what our approach will be and what our deliverables are likely to be. So that’s where the freedom is coming from.
We are, as practitioners, open to offer the set of tools and then with the sponsors and with the business we determine which are the most appropriate. And then we follow all the usual practice when there are things like sign-offs and things like that. When we talk about the governance and regulation, we still have those boundaries that are just a good practice boundaries in terms of peer reviews, feedback sessions, co-design, approvals, all that type of stuff.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah, yeah. And I guess I’m also listening to this from the perspective of our other listeners. And I just want to acknowledge, Dijana, you have created this environment which is really strong on psychological safety with your practitioners, and that’s really enabling a lot of this really great stuff that you can do. And not everybody is as fortunate to be working in that kind of environment. So kudos. Kudos to you.
Marco, you have previously shared how our brain-friendly change course resonated with you as a neurodivergent practitioner. Can you unpack that a little bit and tell us what elements of brain-friendly change has stayed with you or really ticked the box?
Marco:
For me as somebody who’s… I have ADHD, and one of the things that most people with ADHD will tell you is that masking is something. And if you’ve had it for long enough, you can really make it stick and give people the impression that you were just so put together on the outside and yet you were having a constant primal scream in your head. And I always struggled a lot as a change practitioner having to work in this way, that it had to be perfect, it had to be this, it had to be planned, it had to be that.
And you’ve got a brain that’s scrambled. And you are in there and you’re sitting in front of everybody going, “Not a problem. Fine,” with a big smile on your face and everything like that. And you run to the bathroom and you just go, “Oh my god.” And it could be very tiring. And suddenly I do these courses and I do the brain-friendly ones and I do them all. And suddenly I see a way of working in change and a way of delivering change that works the same way as my brain. Little bits here and there, not too far in advance. Make a mistake. It’s okay, pull it back, you can do this, you can do that.
And all of a sudden I was being a change practitioner without this constant yelling in my head. For some reason it calmed me down completely because I could now speak with confidence to people on everything that I was doing without me having to have this freak out in my head and hide myself away. And that also removed a little bit of the… What is it that we say? Imposter syndrome that we can have because we always want to stay I’m confident and know what we’re saying and what we’re doing.
And suddenly I could talk about things in these nice, short, sharp ways that were really honest and open and creative and collaborative, just the way that my brain would’ve loved to have told this story to anybody. So that’s really why I think Agile change and brain-friendly change really works for me personally as well, on a personal level, on a professional level, because suddenly I don’t have to mask anymore. I don’t have to feel anxious anymore. I don’t have to worry what people are going to say, what are they going to do? And I found that more and more people now trust me more than what they did before.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Thank you so much for your openness in sharing and talking about that, Marco, because I think that that’s a conversation that is very beneficial to a lot of people, whether they’re change practitioners or not. So thank you. Leah, you’ve also done brain-friendly change, so I’m curious, what’s your advice to other change practitioners around one small thing they could do to make their practice more human and brain-friendly?
Leah:
Small thing, I’m not sure, but it’s a mindset shift. And we say that change is about people. That’s what we are here to do. We’re here to support people through change. But I think rethinking how you think about your stakeholders and you do your stakeholder analysis is something that makes your change work more human. And by that I mean instead of just creating a list of stakeholders and who they are and what their role is and how they’re impacted, asking the questions about finding out what makes them tick, how do they think and feel about the changes that are coming because understanding that at a human level can then help us to adapt the way that we then do our change work to make it more focused on their needs. And we know if we can meet some of those needs, we’re going to have more success.
So I think that’s something that I’ve changed in my practice as well, is not just listing everybody who’s important to know as a stakeholder, but why? And what is it that makes them tick? We’ve recently had a project here where we did some work with personas and we worked with the team to say, “Okay. Let’s put together a persona for you and how are you thinking and feeling about this change?” And what came out of that conversation was something that I just didn’t expect.
And the team were really open and saying, “I’m actually feeling really, really nervous, really scared because I don’t know where information is that I need. I’m scared I can’t get it quickly enough.” And that then led us to change the thinking in terms of what I was going to do next about it. So really understanding stakeholders, understanding what is driving them so then you can understand what might be a threat and reward for them is really important.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah, nice. Nice. Now while you’ve got the microphone, Leah, you’ve been very generous in our online community, sharing ideas and practices that you’ve adapted. I’m curious, have you got a go-to, have you got a favorite that you start with every time? Or is there something that you get really excited about using?
Leah:
I love to use the change FutureScapes a lot. I use them pretty much in all initiatives that I’m working on because it really puts the people who are impacted by the change in the driver’s seat to tell me what does the future look like, what’s going to help get there, and what gets in the way. Because I find we’re trying to co-design how we’re going to roll out change and what the change plan should be can become very technical in discussion. And I need training, okay, but that’s training, but what does that actually mean?
So flipping it and the FutureScapes model is a really nice way of asking those questions that people can relate to. So success that got me there might be, “I could speak to someone,” or, “I could easily refer information,” or some simple things like that. So I really do love the change FutureScapes a lot. I’ve talked a bit about personas as well, and I think that they’re really important to really understanding our stakeholders.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Fabulous, fabulous. I was going to say for the listeners who are now curious about a FutureScape, your challenge is to go and Google Ben Lindas and FutureScape, and you can learn more about it there is one of the practices that we love as well. No, that’s great. Dijana, from a leadership lens, how are you creating the space for this? I mean Marco’s given examples of where it’s safe to fail and pivot and pull back and do things differently. How are you doing that as a leader and is that spreading to other leaders around you?
Dijana:
Well, I’m not sure about the spreading. I think we have a bunch of really great leaders at UniSuper that do really some great work in terms of psychological safety. I generally like my team talking more about me as a leader than myself. But if I’m talking about the maybe leadership philosophy, if you can call it that, I try to employ really great people and then just let them do the great job that they can.
And as I mentioned before, we have a framework, but framework is based around principles, not about linear process and templates and things that you have to follow. And if I trust my people and if I employ capable people, then they come into the change space and they create whatever interventions, strategies, plans is appropriate for that particular change space.
Now, that doesn’t mean I leave them in a deep water. They all know that they have that there’s… Not open door, there is no door, but there is walk behind me and talk to me type of conversation. I’m there to remove barriers, I’m there to make introductions. I’m there to help them build networks, things like that. I’m there to brainstorm with them. And I think the critical piece for me is the team I feel knows that I always, always, always have their backs.
So I think for our ability to experiment and try different things, we also have to have ability to accept that some things don’t work or don’t always work. We need to have ability to regroup, reorganize, we have to have ability to give and accept the feedback, and have the conversations, what people call tough conversations. I don’t feel them tough in our team. I don’t know, you guys can correct me. I just feel them really open and honest individually and also in a group as a practice. Now I really wonder what would Leah and Marco say about me creating a space.
Marco:
No, I think it’s completely true. We’re given an opportunity to experiment with some things. Sometimes we get the thumbs up a lot. Every once in a while we might get a, “Not just yet,” which is fair enough. But feedback is always constructive and it’s never personal. And we feel comfortable enough to be able to try things, say things, talk to people that we wouldn’t usually speak to, and that. And that, geez, what great English was that?
So yeah, I would I… Without saying, “Oh my God, the best boss in the world.” But it’s true. It’s true. I can honestly say hand on heart. And I’m sorry for any other manager I’ve ever had who might listen to this, one of the best, honestly, just really just due to the fact that there is a safe space for us. And especially when you’re practicing Agile where things are a little bit different and can be misconstrued or you’re going to people who are so used to a much more rigid way of doing things, every once in a while someone’s got something to say. So it’s very good for us.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah. Leah, have you got anything to build on that?
Leah:
No. Marco said that we have the opportunity to try new things, and I’ll just add that we’re strongly encouraged to, like Dijana really says, “Try new things. I want you to try new things.” And I think it’s that encouragement and allowing the space. But Dijana nailed it. And if she hadn’t have said it, I would’ve said it that you always have our back, Dijana, when you are talking to stakeholders. And if we try something and it doesn’t quite work, we know that we’re not going to get slammed for it because unless it’s some sort of catastrophic mistake, which none of us have made. But it’s not the end of the world and it’s a learning experience. And I think Dijana fosters that environment very strongly.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Lot of love in the room.
Dijana:
I can go and retire now. I think I achieved everything I wanted to achieve in my career. That’s done. Okay. Let’s move from Dijana.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Okay.
Dijana:
Let’s move on.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Moving on. If you were talking to someone just starting out in change or maybe they’re feeling stuck, what piece of advice would you give them?
Dijana:
Something that I’ve learned, not through Agile change, but I’ve learned probably halfway through my change journey that the resistance is a gift. So the whole thing about manage resistance. And what we mean by that, we often say, “Manage resistance out,” or, “Calm it down,” or whatever. For me, it is about exploring why it’s there. So just thinking about change, resistance, what’s happening behind that.
And I think that the richness of the data and information and also just the genuine constructive feedback that’s coming from that resistance is invaluable. But generally, the other thing that I talk to Tim often is because we work in projects and with projects, sometimes we get stuck in a project rather than on a project, if that makes sense. So often I say, “If you’re feeling stuck and if you’re kind of feeling that you’re not moving, try to think how you’re spending too much time on a dance floor. And can you pull yourself up on a balcony and actually look from a different perspective what’s happening on the dance floor?”
And ultimately go back to basics. Remember things about the stakeholder management. Remember things about the impact assessments, remember things about Case for Change and what’s a compelling case for change. What’s the open communication. Often, particularly I’m speaking in my own experience because I’ve been in this space for such a long time, cutting corners is not the right word, but sometimes I do shortcuts. And I do things faster, and I do things because it’s faster. I need to respond in a spot.
Sometimes that doesn’t work. Sometimes I find myself in a corner, then I turn back and think, “Okay, maybe this particular shortcut, maybe I missed a stakeholder.” It can be as basic as I actually miss somebody that needs to know about this and it’s involved in this. So sometimes going back to basics is super important.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Yeah. Nice. Marco or Leah, your thoughts. What’s your advice?
Marco:
What would I say? I would say that… How do I say this nicely? It’s not about them because people could sometimes… Change practitioners can think, “It’s about me. Why didn’t you like my plan? Why did you like my comms?” But it’s also about, it’s about the project. It’s about the stakeholder. It’s about what’s best, how it will work. You are not saving the world. It doesn’t have to be the greatest struggle that you put on your shoulders.
But just keep it clean. Keep it simple. Get your message across. Speak to people. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. You won’t know. It’s always that 10th question you ask where you go, “Oh, I didn’t think about that.” And just listen to what is being said to you. But don’t think that you can’t put yourself into your work. You don’t have to always comply, negotiate and put a little bit of yourself in there. And just learn from it and just get better every single time. And don’t hide away when something goes bad.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Nice. Leah.
Leah:
You had a lot in that.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
You had a lot. That was a lot.
Marco:
[inaudible 00:35:39] You taught us a lot.
Leah:
My advice would be there is no stupid question. There’s no such thing as a stupid question. Be curious. Be the annoying child that continues to ask, “Why?” Dig deep and listen carefully and actively, because what you’ll hear will only make you a better change practitioner if you are listening and asking the questions and the right questions too. So I know sometimes we feel like we ask lots of questions in our roles. And I’m always the one that says at the start of meeting, “So I’m going to be the one that’s going to ask lots of daft questions today,” and it sets up the safe space because everyone then says, “Oh, no, there’s no such thing as a silly question.” “Great. Well, I’m about to ask 20 of them. So here we go.” So yeah, lean into the curiosity.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
I love it. I love it. Dijana, you talked about change resistance being a gift. Spending time with you three is a massive gift. I’m so very grateful that you’ve made the time. Let’s wrap this session up with a challenge. Can you complete this sentence? Agile change is.
Dijana:
How much time do we have left? Agile change is working and empowering people who work on a journey as much as the outcome.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Nice.
Marco:
I’m going to let you go.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Please. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Leah:
[inaudible 00:37:25] I think a big thing is that I’ve learned is Agile change is not just for big A Agile work. That’s been a real light bulb moment for me. It’s about the little A agile, and you can do agile change on any change initiative that you’re working on.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
Lovely. Marco, you get to wrap up.
Marco:
I wrap it up. I’m going to give you a very, very neurodivergent response. So for me, Agile change is like a great dance party where there is no rigid choreography and just a great beat of iterations where everyone finds their own groove.
Dijana:
And here is a team in a nutshell. There is a philosophical one, there is a practical one, and there is a creative one.
Dr. Jen Frahm:
What a perfect combination. Leah, Marco, Dijana, thank you so much for your time. Listeners, I hope you have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. Thank you for joining us.
Marco:
Thank you.
Dijana:
Thank you for having us, Jen.
Marco:
Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for joining us on this conversation of Agile change. If you are keen for more insights and inspiration from Dr. Jen Frahm and Lena Ross, you can connect on LinkedIn to stay updated with their latest thoughts and discoveries. Follow the Agile Change Leadership Institute on LinkedIn or Facebook for a wealth of valuable resources. Subscribe to our bi-weekly sprint notes where you’ll find thought-provoking content delivered straight to your inbox. Or check out @agilechange on Instagram. We look forward to having you back for more insightful conversations on Agile change. Until next time, be brave, be curious and have fun with change.
